Response to Doc Fai Wong article

Sifufrank's response to Doc Fai Wong's 2002 Article in Inside Kung Fu Magazine:  Founder of Choy Li Fut Training for Life

Doc Fai Wong's Inside Kung Fu Article:

The link to his article:
http://plumblossom.net/Articles/Inside_Kung-Fu/May2002/index1.html

Jeong Yim was one of the outstanding students of Chan Heung, founder of the choy li fut system. Jeong Yim worked very hard in choy li fut kung-fu training under Chan Heung. He was also a very intelligent young man; this made the system's founder take notice.

In 1867, after a few years of learning choy li fut, Chan Heung appointed him to take over the Hung Sing Studio in Fut San (modern-day Fo Shan), which was established in 1848 by Chan Din Yao and Chan Din Fune, two of Chan Heung's first students.

Jeong Yim's efforts made the Hung Sing Studio famous. During the annual celebration of the Toast Ancestors Temple (Zu Miao), Jeong Yim always brought a strong choy li fut kung-fu demo team to do lion dancing and kung-fu forms exhibitions. Soon the Hung Sing Studio's name was getting famous in Fut San's martial arts circles. Because of Jeong Yim's successful business and his famous name, many kung-fu masters became jealous and challenged him to matches. Jeong Yim defeated all challengers, which only served to make him more famous.

At the time, the people only knew Jeong Yim's family name of Jeong and the school name of Hung Sing; therefore, those in Fut San thought his name was Jeong Hung Sing. Jeong Yim trained many outstanding students to carry on his teachings. Chan Ngau Sing took over the Hung Sing Studio after ]eong Yim died. Yuen Hai (aka Yuen Fook) went to Toi San to teach and Loi Chaun taught in Canton. Many other students remained in the Fut San area to assist in Chan Ngau Sing's headquarters and teach in the branches of the Hung Sing Studio in Fut San. Because ]eong Yim died at a young age, he had very few forms to teach. The sup ji kau da and the ping kuen hand forms; hung sing butterfly knives; and the seung gup dan staff are the major sets in the Fut San's lineage.

In ancient times, students respected their teacher. Thus, it was not appropriate to question your teacher's background or the history of his kung-fu system. After a time, the students thought their teacher, "]eong Hung Sing", was the founder of the Hung Sing Studio. In Canton, there was a kung-fu storybook writer whose pen name was Nim Fut San Yen. He wrote a fictional storybook about the Fut San Hung Sing Studio. After that book was published, all the Hung Sing students in Fut San treated the book as though it were the history of their kung-fu system. This book also led them to believe that Jeong Yim and Chan Heung were the co-founders of the choy li fut system.

The fictional story said that Jeong Yim's uncle took him to the Chan Village to look for Chan Heung. The Chan Village may not have existed, but Chan Heung's hometown of King Mui Village was real. It is hard to picture a high-level martial artist of Chan Heung's reputation getting hurt in a fight over the water rights and being saved by a child who knew a little of Jeong Yim's kung-fu.

The statement that Chan Heung's village did not allow outsiders to be taught choy li fut is questionable at best. One of Chan Heung's first 18 disciples was an outsider. Lung Ji Choi didn't have the family name of "Chan", but reportedly took lessons from Chan Heung ten-to-15 years before Jeong Yim. The storybook also said that Chan Heung sent Jeong Yim to the Bot Pai Mountain to search for the Green Grass Monk. I tried to find the mountain in the Kwangsi province, but to my knowledge it does not exist.

I also discovered that the Buddhist name of Chan Heung's teacher, Choy Fook, was Ching Cho (Green Grass). According to the fictional story, the monk in the Bot Pai Mountain gave Jeong Yim the nickname "Hung Sing". However, this is not plausible. At that time, according to available records, Chan Heung was already using that slogan in King Mui and named his school Hung Sing at the beginning of his teaching. Even today, is hard to have your student learn another martial art and then come back to teach you.

China in the 1800s was very close-minded. How could Jeong Yim bring kung-fu back from Bot Pai Mountain and then teach his sifu, who then became co-founder of the choy li fut kung-fu system? Nor was Jeong Yim the founder of the Hung Sing Studio in Fut San. According to records, in 1848 Chan Heung sent Chan Din Yao and Chan Din Fune to open the Hung Sing Studio. After 19 years, the first two masters retired from teaching in Fut San. In 1867, Chan Heung re-sent Jeong Yim to take over the Hung Sing studio. As you can see, there is little in the way of dates or names to prove the account written by Nim Put San Yen.

My late teacher, great-grandmaster Hu Yuen Chou, was a student of Chan Ngau Sing, who was the successor of Jeong Yim. Chan Ngau Sing knew the true history and was also a friend of Nim Put San Yen, the author of the fictional book. It is only through the martial arts of Chan Ngau Sing, as well as the accounts of the storybook author, that we know the true history of the Hung Sing Studio in Fut San.

Doc-Fai Wong writes a bi-monthly column for Inside Kung Fu.


SIFU FRANK'S RESPONSE TO THE ABOVE ARTICLE:

 

#1  DFW:  In 1867, after a few years of learning choy li fut, Chan Heung appointed him to take over the Hung Sing Studio in Fut San (modern-day Fo Shan), which was established in 1848 by, two of Chan Heung's first students.

SF:  This is untrue.  Chan Heung wasn't the one to send Jeung Hung Sing to the city of Fut San whatsoever.  The Green Grass Monk was the person who instructed him to go there and that was so he could contact the leaders of the Hung Mun branch which was in Fut San.   Additionally, in 1867 Jeung Hung Sing was returning to fut san to "re-open" the school he already established back in 1851. 

Furthermore, the school that Jeung Hung Sing took over from the guy who went blind didn't happen until 1875, the same year Chan Heung passed away. And if Jeung Hung Sing was taking over to teach Chan Heung's gung fu he should have kept the original name of the school which was Great Sage 洪圣.  But, Jeung Hung Sing removed that name and replaced it with the new Hung Sing 鴻勝 meaning Glorious Victory. 

 
#2  DFW:   Jeong Yim's efforts made the Hung Sing Studio famous. During the annual celebration of the Toast Ancestors Temple (Zu Miao), Jeong Yim always brought a strong choy li fut kung-fu demo team to do lion dancing and kung-fu forms exhibitions. Soon the Hung Sing Studio's name was getting famous in Fut San's martial arts circles. 

SF:  Jeung Hung Sing wasn't famous because of his "GUNG FU and LION DANCE" demonstrations.  He and his school was famous for fighting in the Tai Ping revolution.  For many, he was a local hero who was fighting for the cause of the people.  For others, he was southern China's greatest fighter. 


#3  DFW:   At the time, the people only knew Jeong Yim's family name of Jeong and the school name of Hung Sing; therefore, those in Fut San thought his name was Jeong Hung Sing

SF:  WHAT?  if they people didn't know his name then, how do we know his name now?  That doesn't make sense at all.  Jeung Hung Sing was famous.  Doc Fai Wong's comment just isn't true at all.  The descendants of Jeung Hung Sing including Doc Fai's teacher Lau Bun told the story that Jeung Yim received the Hung Sing name from the Green Grass Monk.   


#4 DFW:  Many other students remained in the Fut San area to assist in Chan Ngau Sing's headquarters and teach in the branches of the Hung Sing Studio in Fut San. Because ]eong Yim died at a young age, he had very few forms to teach.

SF:  Jeung Hung Sing didn't die at a young age as some have mistakenly reported in the past.  For example, some have claimed that Jeung Hung Sing died somewhere around the age of 33 years old.  However, this was a mistake.  IF those who made this claim would have counted backwards from Chan Ngau Sing one would know that it wasn't until 1883/4 that he started learning with Jeung Hung Sing.  If we follow the idea of Jeung Hung Sing dying at 33 that would have been in the year 1857.  However, Chan Ngau Sing didn't start his training with Jeung Hung Sing until 1883 and we all know you can't teach anyone when you're dead.  Jeung Hung Sing actually died in 1893 at the age of 69 years old, 36 years later than previously thought.  

#5  DFW:  Because ]eong Yim died at a young age, he had very few forms to teach.

SF:  Jeung Hung Sing wasn't teaching forms that were created by Chan Heung.  His original purpose for teaching gung fu wasn't to open a school like we know it today.  He opened his school which was devoted to the revolutionary cause of the Chinese people to prepare them for war.  When you're fighting for your lives, the last thing on earth you're going to want to practice is forms. They won't teach you how to fight.  This is the main reason but Hung Sing and Buk Sing Kwoons have a very low number of hand and weapon forms in comparison to the lineages connected to Chan Heung.  Both lineage (HS & BS) believed combat was far more important than being a performer.  This explains the low number of forms. 


#6  DFW:   Yuen Hai (aka Yuen Fook)

SF:  Yuen Fook was a generation lower than Yuen Hai.  The name Yuen Fook has never been mentioned in relation to Yuen Hai by his lineage nor any master than knew of him.  Not sure where that came from, but as far as i know, it's not true.  Also, when Jeung Hung Sing passed away, Yuen Hai took over the Hong Kong Hung Sing Kwoon while Chan Ngau Sing stayed in Fut  San.  Later on, when Yuen Hai was forced to close down his school he moved into Guangzhou prior to going to Toi San with Lau Bun. 

#7 DFW:  The sup ji kau da and the ping kuen hand forms; hung sing butterfly knives; and the seung gup dan staff are the major sets in the Fut San's lineage.

SF:  This isn't true at all.  The major hand forms of the Fut San lineage founded Jeung Hung Sing were Cheung Kuen, Ping Kuen, Kau Da Kuen, Sup Ji Kuen. 

#8  DFW:  After a time, the students thought their teacher, "]eong Hung Sing", was the founder of the Hung Sing Studio. In Canton, there was a kung-fu storybook writer whose pen name was Nim Fut San Yen. He wrote a fictional storybook about the Fut San Hung Sing Studio. After that book was published, all the Hung Sing students in Fut San treated the book as though it were the history of their kung-fu system. This book also led them to believe that Jeong Yim and Chan Heung were the co-founders of the choy li fut system.

SF:  Jeung Hung Sing was the founder of the 洪勝舘 (Hung Victory School).  What is happening here is a play on words on the hopes of the ignorant Gwai Lo and their lack of knowledge of the Chinese Language.  Sure, Chan Heung's school name was called 洪圣 pronounced as "Hung Sing" but means "Great Sage" but as you can clearly see, the two sets of charecters are totally different in appearance and meaning.  Therefore, Jeung Hung Sing is indeed and fully credited for being the very first HUNG VICTORY SCHOOL  洪勝舘 in the city of Fut San.  While Chan Heung's lineage is fully credited for bringing the GREAT SAGE SCHOOL    洪圣舘 to Fut San.  BOTH are the first in respect to their own schools.

#9 DFW:  Nim Fut San Yen. He wrote a fictional storybook about the Fut San Hung Sing Studio. After that book was published, all the Hung Sing students in Fut San treated the book as though it were the history of their kung-fu system. This book also led them to believe that Jeong Yim and Chan Heung were the co-founders of the choy li fut system.

SF:  No one that i know of from our lineage going back to Fut San has ever read this book from Nim Fut San Yen much less spread what he wrote.  I know for myself this book has never played a part in my research. 

#10 DFW: The fictional story said that Jeong Yim's uncle took him to the Chan Village to look for Chan Heung. The Chan Village may not have existed, but Chan Heung's hometown of King Mui Village was real.

SF:  The Chan Village did exist back in those days as certain areas were designated by surnames as the Chinese people were very clannish back then.  So this is just another attempt at playing with words to gain the upper hand.  He is trusting that no one has done enough research on their own.  And research shows that various villages were set up via ancestry.  Everyone in the village or even the neighborhood possessed the Chan Surname hence the nick name of Chan Family village in King Mui.  Another play on words?  i think so.

#11  DFW:  It is hard to picture a high-level martial artist of Chan Heung's reputation getting hurt in a fight over the water rights and being saved by a child who knew a little of Jeong Yim's kung-fu.

SF:  Jeung Yim's gung fu?   Isn't the gung fu he learned Chan Heung's gung fu? what gung fu was he talking about?  Additionally, if you search on the internet the Hung Sing history in both english and chinese you'll discover that no one in any Hung Sing lineage mentions a boy and water rights.  

#12    DFW:  China in the 1800s was very close-minded. How could Jeong Yim bring kung-fu back from Bot Pai Mountain and then teach his sifu, who then became co-founder of the choy li fut kung-fu system? Nor was Jeong Yim the founder of the Hung Sing Studio in Fut San. According to records, in 1848 Chan Heung sent Chan Din Yao and Chan Din Fune to open the Hung Sing Studio. After 19 years, the first two masters retired from teaching in Fut San. In 1867, Chan Heung re-sent Jeong Yim to take over the Hung Sing studio. As you can see, there is little in the way of dates or names to prove the account written by Nim Put San Yen.

SF:  It is alleged that Chan Heung supported the Hung Mun and its quite possible he joined our fraternity and Jeung Hung Sing is widely known for his Hung Mun activities.  So if this were true then Jeung Hung Sing and Chan Heung were brothers under the Hung Mun.  According to our lineage Chan Heung regarded Jeung Hung Sing as a brother  by  this time and in 1864 when the two of them reunited in Hong Kong, Chan Heung was curious to see the gung fu he picked up from the Green Grass monk.  Being that Chan Heung was the founder of his choy lee fut system he wanted to improve it by adding in some of the things Jeung Hung Sing learned from the monk.  Because of Jeung Hung Sing's contributions to the further development of the Choy Lee Fut system it is our belief he could be thought of as a co-founder of sorts. 


#13  DFW:  I also discovered that the Buddhist name of Chan Heung's teacher, Choy Fook, was Ching Cho (Green Grass). According to the fictional story, the monk in the Bot Pai Mountain gave Jeong Yim the nickname "Hung Sing". However, this is not plausible. At that time, according to available records, Chan Heung was already using that slogan in King Mui and named his school Hung Sing at the beginning of his teaching. Even today, is hard to have your student learn another martial art and then come back to teach you.

SF:  This really shocked the ENTIRE Choy Lee Fut world when he made the claim of Choy Fook's "BUDDHIST" name.  For myself, this was a shocker because the name "GREEN GRASS or CHING CHO" isn't a "Buddhist" name at all.  It has no correlation to Shaolin nor does it have any connection to religion.  In my personal opinion he was hoping that no one really knew anything about monk ching cho at all.  but much to his chagrin he tried to paint a new history for this infamously mysterious monk.  But the book i've been working on will shed some major light onto this whole subject and will nullify this false claim that Choy Fook's "BUDDHIST" name was Ching Cho.  Nothing is more fictional than his claim.

#14  DFW:  As you can see, there is little in the way of dates or names to prove the account written by Nim Fut San Yen.

SF:  He's going to have a tough time proving that we use the information in Nim's book as NO ONE has ever read it in todays day and age.